My thoughts on the 2013 Scion FR-S

[FRSJOE]

My thoughts on the new FRS.


Styling: The FR-S prototype is just about perfect as is. I'll take mine in gunmetal gray thank you very much...


Performance: Make the option list contain track ready pieces like front splitter, spoiler packages that create real downforce. Rear Seat delete and a Factory Roll bar and REAL CF bits like the hood, side mirrors and interior bits to keep the weight down under 2500lbs or even better 2400lbs and she'll be an autocross animal. Considering the size similarities and the fact that the Miata weighs in at just 2410lbs, I dont believe this number is too far out of reach considering the FR-S doesn't have a conv top and the structural reinforcements that come with it. Lightweight 17" wheels stock with optional 18" or 19" upgrade.


Engine:In my opinion the F20C in the S2000 should be considered the current high water mark for NA performance at 120bhp/Liter in a street car. (I've owned two of them) Being that this engine will be GDI it kind of re-writes the performance envelope. GDI engines can inject fuel at any time during the combustion cycle (including the compression stroke). They aren't really as affected by the stoichiometric ratio or fuel octane. They can also have multiple fuel injection sequences in one cycle, much like a diesel engine with split shot injectors. Injectors can also be "Turned Up" electronically like on a diesel (within physical limit of the injectors) All this leads to engineers being able to use MUCH higher compression ratio's (sometimes over 12:1!!!) and have more control over fueling. GDI engines also dont have an air throttle so they can be much more sensitive to airflow improvements and fueling changes. Typically GDI increases an engines efficiency by about 10% (see Cadillac CTS and CLS 350) all that being said the theoretical max HP/Tq this NA boxer engine could produce is around 265hp/170Tq. Now Do I think the FR-S mill will hit those numbers? Absolutely Not. The F20C was largely a handbuilt race motor. I SERIOUSLY doubt ToyoBaru will take this route. I think they are aiming for a motor that will be robust enough to handle a turbo with ease, not a high strung fragile race motor. To Summarize look for:

10:1 Compression Ratio

200HP/160tq on 87 octane 14.5@96 1/4mi

210HP/165tq on 93 octane 14.3@98 1/4 mi
300HP/245tq with a mild turbo (6-8psi) 13.0@110 1/4mi
**w/full tank of fuel and my fat 270lb butt on board**

27mpg city/32mpg hwy (mainly low due to gearing)

Pricing: Clearly this car is aimed to satisfy ALOT of tastes, and steal buyer of:
Honda Civic SI
Ford Mustang V6
Mazda Miata
Mazda Speed3
Ford Focus ST
Hyundai Genesis 2.0t
Therefore it's starting price will not be priced above the starting point of these vehicles (roughly $23k)

It has to be priced below the heavy hitters of the sports car market:
Mustang GT
Nissan 370z
Mitsubishi EVO
Subaru WRX STI
Chevy Camaro SS
Hyundai Genesis 3.8
So look for a fully optioned price of around $28k where the big boys pick up

Just my .02 cents

Joe

[import_nation]

Thank you for the input Joe. You're expectations may be spot on. The pricing strategy has to make sense according to competitors. 210HP/165tq on 93 octane sounds just fine to me. I'd hope for the FR-S to be at least 200hp and 160lb tq and for the weight to be under 2500lbs.

It would be a huge hit if Scion offered optional accessories such as CF pieces, race style seats, rear seat delete, sway bars. Toyota/Subaru won't tune the GDI engine to its full potential but being a direct injection motor allows aftermarket tuners more flexibility when tuning.

Would you still be interested in the FR-S if the styling was toned down and if the vehicle was 2500lbs and just at 200hp? What if it was priced at 26k?

[FR_S_Fan]

My thoughts on the new FRS.


Styling: The FR-S prototype is just about perfect as is. I'll take mine in gunmetal gray thank you very much...


Performance: Make the option list contain track ready pieces like front splitter, spoiler packages that create real downforce. Rear Seat delete and a Factory Roll bar and REAL CF bits like the hood, side mirrors and interior bits to keep the weight down under 2500lbs or even better 2400lbs and she'll be an autocross animal. Considering the size similarities and the fact that the Miata weighs in at just 2410lbs, I dont believe this number is too far out of reach considering the FR-S doesn't have a conv top and the structural reinforcements that come with it. Lightweight 17" wheels stock with optional 18" or 19" upgrade.


Engine:In my opinion the F20C in the S2000 should be considered the current high water mark for NA performance at 120bhp/Liter in a street car. (I've owned two of them) Being that this engine will be GDI it kind of re-writes the performance envelope. GDI engines can inject fuel at any time during the combustion cycle (including the compression stroke). They aren't really as affected by the stoichiometric ratio or fuel octane. They can also have multiple fuel injection sequences in one cycle, much like a diesel engine with split shot injectors. Injectors can also be "Turned Up" electronically like on a diesel (within physical limit of the injectors) All this leads to engineers being able to use MUCH higher compression ratio's (sometimes over 12:1!!!) and have more control over fueling. GDI engines also dont have an air throttle so they can be much more sensitive to airflow improvements and fueling changes. Typically GDI increases an engines efficiency by about 10% (see Cadillac CTS and CLS 350) all that being said the theoretical max HP/Tq this NA boxer engine could produce is around 265hp/170Tq. Now Do I think the FR-S mill will hit those numbers? Absolutely Not. The F20C was largely a handbuilt race motor. I SERIOUSLY doubt ToyoBaru will take this route. I think they are aiming for a motor that will be robust enough to handle a turbo with ease, not a high strung fragile race motor. To Summarize look for:

10:1 Compression Ratio

200HP/160tq on 87 octane 14.5@96 1/4mi

210HP/165tq on 93 octane 14.3@98 1/4 mi
300HP/245tq with a mild turbo (6-8psi) 13.0@110 1/4mi
**w/full tank of fuel and my fat 270lb butt on board**

27mpg city/32mpg hwy (mainly low due to gearing)

Pricing: Clearly this car is aimed to satisfy ALOT of tastes, and steal buyer of:
Honda Civic SI
Ford Mustang V6
Mazda Miata
Mazda Speed3
Ford Focus ST
Hyundai Genesis 2.0t
Therefore it's starting price will not be priced above the starting point of these vehicles (roughly $23k)

It has to be priced below the heavy hitters of the sports car market:
Mustang GT
Nissan 370z
Mitsubishi EVO
Subaru WRX STI
Chevy Camaro SS
Hyundai Genesis 3.8
So look for a fully optioned price of around $28k where the big boys pick up

Just my .02 cents

Joe

Great read!

I was reading on the Subaru BRZ a week or two ago and a reliable source stated the Subaru BRZ will have a base price of $27 000.

You seem to be spot on with the fully optioned Scion FR-S price of around $28 000, and I agree with that. So do you think the BRZ will actually start around $27 000? if it does, how different do you think it will be from the FR-S? if it doesn't, what price do you think it will start at? and how about a Subaru BRZ fully optioned price?

You seem to know a lot about cars, sorry if I'm asking too much questions but I would appreciate it if you could answer them!

Thanks in advance

[FRSJOE]

Thank you for the input Joe. You're expectations may be spot on. The pricing strategy has to make sense according to competitors. 210HP/165tq on 93 octane sounds just fine to me. I'd hope for the FR-S to be at least 200hp and 160lb tq and for the weight to be under 2500lbs.

It would be a huge hit if Scion offered optional accessories such as CF pieces, race style seats, rear seat delete, sway bars. Toyota/Subaru won't tune the GDI engine to its full potential but being a direct injection motor allows aftermarket tuners more flexibility when tuning.

Would you still be interested in the FR-S if the styling was toned down and if the vehicle was 2500lbs and just at 200hp? What if it was priced at 26k?

My current daily driver is a 05 Legacy 2.5 GT so my main interest is in a trackday/autocross toy not a daily driver so absolutely. My main selling points in order are:

1. Weight
2. Handling
3. Engine Upgradability
4. Looks
5. Interior Features

I guess I could sum it up by giving you my idea of the perfect FRS for my needs.

Room for my 6'3" 270lb chubby old guy self
2450lb
CF hood, splitter, side mirrors, diffuser, wing, dash bezel
Rear Seat Delete/maybe a Parcel shelf option?
Lightweight (19lbs or less) Staggered 18" wheels 8"F/9"R with some decent bridgestones (Potenza S0-3 or RE series maybe?)
Handling somewhere in between my 00 S2000 (decent power, high speed stability, but too tail happy in tight corners) and my 99 Miata (not enough grip/power but WAY balanced and tossable in tight corners)
215 Hp on 93 octane
Limited slip diff
dual center exit exhaust
32+ MPG if you stay out of the skinny pedal (like that will ever happen)
Room for a moderate turbo/FMIC to get me to 300hp (has to be reliable, factory would be better)
Looks: TOYOTA I'M TALKING TO YOU!!! Please dont screw it up! The last thing we need is another swoopy camry/eclipse pod car. The angles and curves of the FR-S concept are perfect. DO NOT CHANGE THEM!!!
LED Tail/Turn/Indicator/Interior lighting
HID Headlamps
Recaro seats and the excellent factory Momo steering wheel out of my Subaru LGT
Decent stereo HDD based w/Bluetooth (or Pandora like the new Hyundai Velociter) or at bare minimum a aux plug for a MP3 or Smartphone without having to upgrade to NAV (I can read a map)
Also how about digital guages/onboard display panel with multiple modes to display only needed info for certain activities:
Normal:Speedo,Tach,Oil,Temp,Boost,Fuel
Track Mode: Tach, Gear selected, Oil, Boost, EGT, Temp, Fuel, Lap Time
Test Mode:0-60,1/4mile,EGT,Boost,Cornering G,Lap Time, A/F Ratio
If they could offer this all under $28k sign me up now. Much more than that I'm going to seriously consider a Mustang GT,Camaro SS, WRX STI

Joe

[import_nation]

I think you should apply to Toyota as chief designer.

[FRSJOE]

Great read!

I was reading on the Subaru BRZ a week or two ago and a reliable source stated the Subaru BRZ will have a base price of $27 000.

You seem to be spot on with the fully optioned Scion FR-S price of around $28 000, and I agree with that. So do you think the BRZ will actually start around $27 000? if it does, how different do you think it will be from the FR-S? if it doesn't, what price do you think it will start at? and how about a Subaru BRZ fully optioned price?

You seem to know a lot about cars, sorry if I'm asking too much questions but I would appreciate it if you could answer them!

Thanks in advance

No problem. I'm no expert but something with pricing just doesn't add up to me, I've heard from $20k for the base FRS all the way up to $28k+ for the base BRZ. Why the huge price difference? Its not AWD, close examination of the BRZ drivetrain rules out a symetrical AWD as an option. (although another type of AWD may rear it's head later with the new CAFE regs coming out. hybrid drive? maybe conventional drivetrain powering the rear wheels with electric driving the front as needed? ) It's not styling as they have already established the sheet metal will be almost identical between the cars with only badging and facia changes. Option packages? I find it pretty hard to believe that even with the LEGO-style upgrade nature of Scion cars that you can put $8k worth of options on one to bring it up to a BASE model BRZ. Lets look at it like this:

$20000 Base FRS
$400 LSD
$1500 Wheel and Tire upgrade
$1000 Sunroof
$2000 NAV
$500 Stereo Upgrade
$1000 Aero Pack - Splitter, Wing Etc
$26400 Your still under the BRZ base price, Why would you buy a base BRZ again?

The numbers just dont add up. Maybe 20k for a base FRS is low. (probably) it would kill the TC sales, then again maybe the TC is on the chopping block. Maybe the 27k for a base BRZ is high (possibly) getting pretty close to EVO/STI money. Remember, Toyota is marketing this car as a balanced performance car like the AE86. Subaru as a test mule of sorts to enhance their understanding of performance vehicle handling/control. I still think the $23k for a FRS and $26k for a BRZ are about right, but your still $3k apart in price. Hmmmmmmm what can you buy for around $3000 that isn't AWD, styling, electronics, or interior related. Ol Scoobie may just be trying to sneak something special in just under the radar. Kinda makes you wonder about the rumored BRZ STI supposed to be displayed at the LA auto show in Novemeber. Just a thought...

Joe

[FRSJOE]

I think you should apply to Toyota as chief designer.

Thanks, a boy can dream can't he!

Joe

[import_nation]

No problem. I'm no expert but something with pricing just doesn't add up to me, I've heard from $20k for the base FRS all the way up to $28k+ for the base BRZ. Why the huge price difference? Its not AWD, close examination of the BRZ drivetrain rules out a symetrical AWD as an option. (although another type of AWD may rear it's head later with the new CAFE regs coming out. hybrid drive? maybe conventional drivetrain powering the rear wheels with electric driving the front as needed? ) It's not styling as they have already established the sheet metal will be almost identical between the cars with only badging and facia changes. Option packages? I find it pretty hard to believe that even with the LEGO-style upgrade nature of Scion cars that you can put $8k worth of options on one to bring it up to a BASE model BRZ. Lets look at it like this:

$20000 Base FRS
$400 LSD
$1500 Wheel and Tire upgrade
$1000 Sunroof
$2000 NAV
$500 Stereo Upgrade
$1000 Aero Pack - Splitter, Wing Etc
$26400 Your still under the BRZ base price, Why would you buy a base BRZ again?

The numbers just dont add up. Maybe 20k for a base FRS is low. (probably) it would kill the TC sales, then again maybe the TC is on the chopping block. Maybe the 27k for a base BRZ is high (possibly) getting pretty close to EVO/STI money. Remember, Toyota is marketing this car as a balanced performance car like the AE86. Subaru as a test mule of sorts to enhance their understanding of performance vehicle handling/control. I still think the $23k for a FRS and $26k for a BRZ are about right, but your still $3k apart in price. Hmmmmmmm what can you buy for around $3000 that isn't AWD, styling, electronics, or interior related. Ol Scoobie may just be trying to sneak something special in just under the radar. Kinda makes you wonder about the rumored BRZ STI supposed to be displayed at the LA auto show in Novemeber. Just a thought...

Joe

I wouldnt mind if the base FR-S was 20K and everything else was an option.

Sunroof no thank you.
Audio no thank you
Electric windows no thank you
ac no thank you

On a more realistic note I hope the LSD comes standard. That would be a big deal for me.

[FRSJOE]

I wouldnt mind if the base FR-S was 20K and everything else was an option.

Sunroof no thank you.
Audio no thank you
Electric windows no thank you
ac no thank you

On a more realistic note I hope the LSD comes standard. That would be a big deal for me.

I'm with you on the crank windows and the sunroof delete for 20K but in the deep south we need the AC! Plus I've gotta have some tunes (or at least an exhaust note good enough to make me not miss them)

[import_nation]

I won't hear my music through my straight through exhaust anyways

I dont plan to drive this thing through winter. Winters where I am destroy cars instantly.

[liljpboi]

Eh I still have a hard time believing Toyota is going to sell the FR-S at around the 20k mark and put one of their own cars the tC on the chopping block and an even harder time seeing Subaru selling the BRZ at a higher msrp then the WRX which is only 25,500 USD base and it's AWD and has a turbocharged 265hp engine.. I wonder how they would justify selling a lower powered RWD vehicle for a higher price if you guys are right

[FRSJOE]

Eh I still have a hard time believing Toyota is going to sell the FR-S at around the 20k mark and put one of their own cars the tC on the chopping block and an even harder time seeing Subaru selling the BRZ at a higher msrp then the WRX which is only 25,500 USD base and it's AWD and has a turbocharged 265hp engine.. I wonder how they would justify selling a lower powered RWD vehicle for a higher price if you guys are right

Well different wheels for different folks. As much as I love the WRX (and my LGT) there is absolutely NO WAY a 3200lb AWD Car with it's motor hanging out in front of the front axle will out handle a 2500lb F/R car on dry pavement. That being said I feel the WRX and FRS will not be competing. 2WD/AWD, 2/4 door, Turbo/NA. They are about as different as can be.

WRX Buyer:
18-30 years old
Needs a car for Saturday afternoon and monday morning
Possibly lives in the snow belt
Maybe has a kid or two
Cares more about straighline accelleration and foul weather capability

FRS Buyer:
18-24 or 35-45
Already has a Practical Daily Driver or is Single
Needs a Track Toy or Autocross machine
Lives in the Sun Belt or can store the car for the winter
Cares more about balance/agility/cornering than sheer power

Both are phenominal cars but different approaches to the same problem. Personally prices being equal i'll take brain sqashing cornering and inspired handling over eyeball flattening accelleration anyday. Cars are like motorcycles with regards to street performance. The saying goes it's more fun to drive a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow. Meaning driving a slow car at 10/10ths is more fun than a fast car at 6/10ths. If you've not had the unpleasant opportunity to drive 500+ hp RWD car on a curvy back road, let me tell you, it's absolutely terrifying. That thing could break the rear tires loose almost at will and it required 100% concentration or you die. Do not pass go, Do not collect $200, No exceptions. Plus its way easier to add HP to a lightweight great handling car than to add handling to a powerful poorly balanced car.

-Joe

[import_nation]

What you said is very true. I expect the FRS to handle much better then the WRX. Even with the extra power the WRX is pretty heavy. The FRS will be a ton of fun to drive if its 200hp and 2500lbs. Plus the FRS has a much lower center of gravity from the factory then the WRX. This will make a good difference in the balance and handling of the car. It is for sure much more fun to drive a 200whp car on a small winding track then a 500whp monster.

[FRSJOE]

To me cars are like women, you find all kinds...

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche = "The Supermodel" = Looks great, goes fast, but high cost of ownership, Spends more time under maintenance than letting you "drive" it

Corvette, Mustang GT, Nissan 370Z, STI, EVO = "The Trophy Wife" looks very good, reasonably low maintence, The one you want to take to a nice dinner or night on the town, Still unattainable by most.

Civic SI, Speed 3, WRX, Stang V6, Genesis = "The High School Girlfriend"
Above average looks, Low Maintenance, Put on your favorite blue jeans and a t-shirt go find a good time on a back road.

GTI, 57 Chevy, CRX SI, AE86, CELICA, 65 Mustang = "The One in a Million" The Game Changer that blends the best of all at just the right time. Good Looks, Good performance, Low cost, and Low Maintenance. AKA "True Love"

Lets hope the the FRS falls into the last group...

-Joe

[import_nation]

To me cars are like women, you find all kinds...

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche = "The Supermodel" = Looks great, goes fast, but high cost of ownership, Spends more time under maintenance than letting you "drive" it

Corvette, Mustang GT, Nissan 370Z, STI, EVO = "The Trophy Wife" looks very good, reasonably low maintence, The one you want to take to a nice dinner or night on the town, Still unattainable by most.

Civic SI, Speed 3, WRX, Stang V6, Genesis = "The High School Girlfriend"
Above average looks, Low Maintenance, Put on your favorite blue jeans and a t-shirt go find a good time on a back road.

GTI, 57 Chevy, CRX SI, AE86, CELICA, 65 Mustang = "The One in a Million" The Game Changer that blends the best of all at just the right time. Good Looks, Good performance, Low cost, and Low Maintenance. AKA "True Love"

Lets hope the the FRS falls into the last group...

-Joe

quoted for life! best quote in FRS history haha. I like your thinking man.